Curse

Terrible Surgeon · Dec 23, 2010, 05:23 AM // 05:23

PvP is dead, its the player's and anet's fault.

Anet is to blame for bad updates and poor managing.

Players are to blame for not including more people other than a pool of already established players for so long (3+years) which is kind of like inbreeding...eventually the group dies off from defects and retardation.

Overall, most of us saw it coming and honestly im surprised its still going at all. It will be like CA eventually unless more players quit crying about rank discrimination and just form and play and learn from losing.

superraptors · Dec 23, 2010, 05:39 AM // 05:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terrible Surgeon

PvP is dead, its the player's and anet's fault.

Anet is to blame for bad updates and poor managing.

Players are to blame for not including more people other than a pool of already established players for so long (3+years) which is kind of like inbreeding...eventually the group dies off from defects and retardation.

Overall, most of us saw it coming and honestly im surprised its still going at all. It will be like CA eventually unless more players quit crying about rank discrimination and just form and play and learn from losing.

its been like this for 3 years, if its gonna become like ca it would have happened 3 years ago

Missing HB · Dec 23, 2010, 08:53 AM // 08:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by superraptors

its been like this for 3 years, if its gonna become like ca it would have happened 3 years ago

It will become like CA once GW2 will be released. 2/3 of players will leave , other 1/3 will be unable to play , because of epic condition to at least get some fights in an area ( i.e usually at least 25 players ) . For the time till it's released , people will probably get bored and leave with time . Euro evenings will remain same imo , but rest of time will just be even more dead than it is now...

ecknine · Dec 28, 2010, 05:13 PM // 17:13

The only problem why people keep away from HA is because a) 90% of the HA players are douches and won't give someone a chance of playing and b) they require a rank of atleast 6+ nowadays, which is impossible for new players to join in... I have had GW for about 65 months now, rank 4 hero, but I've NEVER been able to win the hall...

helloeveryone · Dec 29, 2010, 01:09 PM // 13:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by ecknine

The only problem why people keep away from HA is because a) 90% of the HA players are douches and won't give someone a chance of playing and b) they require a rank of atleast 6+ nowadays, which is impossible for new players to join in... I have had GW for about 65 months now, rank 4 hero, but I've NEVER been able to win the hall...

Geez, seems like i maybe the only R1 that have won the hall though its only once, but that was 3 years back with a guild team lolz
its was a nice feeling

yep u are correct, people don't like HA unless you grind a lot and reach a certain rank, 99% are not "elitist" as their rank came from grinding not that they are really elite. But you can't blame them, they just want to reduce the grind. just leave this format alone, it is not fun. it is full of self delusional players thinking they actually live in an apartment right beside Battle Isle. it is a frustrating place full of haters.

remember why you buy the game in the first place? it is for fun and laughter, peace and joy.

ensoriki · Dec 29, 2010, 04:19 PM // 16:19

Halls is crap anyways your not missing anything by not playing it.
Well to be constructive.
A game should be accessible, easy to learn hard to master.
That is not halls, it's just not approachable by design, or to be more frank it is no longer approachable due to player actions on concepts (titles).

Even then, if you removed titles Halls wouldn't get better.

Infectious · Dec 30, 2010, 10:35 AM // 10:35

How is this thread still going?
About the only thing that will revive HA is letting people take 7 heros.
God knows I'd rather use them than new pugs.
I'd also be able to faceroll most of the r9+ pugs to boot.
Win - win situation IMO.

*lemming* · Dec 30, 2010, 11:57 AM // 11:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by ecknine

The only problem why people keep away from HA is because a) 90% of the HA players are douches and won't give someone a chance of playing and b) they require a rank of atleast 6+ nowadays, which is impossible for new players to join in...

No, it's not. Read the thread.

Missing HB · Dec 30, 2010, 01:25 PM // 13:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Infectious

How is this thread still going?
About the only thing that will revive HA is letting people take 7 heros.
God knows I'd rather use them than new pugs.
I'd also be able to faceroll most of the r9+ pugs to boot.
Win - win situation IMO.

Let's hope this ( or something close to it ) will be done on the next 7 heroes update ( if it even comes..)..

And to ecknine : rank discrimination is a problem that has always existed. The problem here is about the activity in HA on non-euro evenings. You can be either r0 or r10 you won't find more people.....

Thus this leads to rank discrimination problem. As long as there are many people playing , there are as many unranked team that ranked i guess ; but here , concerning the few times i logged recently , it was just like same r11 bala holding halls , facerolling everyone they get 1 on 1 .. But well, 1on 1 halls is also an other problem....

Bright Star Shine · Dec 30, 2010, 01:25 PM // 13:25

If high-end PvP players wouldn't have acted the way they did back in the day i.e. like bunch of douches, and if the remaining high-end PvP'ers would stop acting like 'em too, this would never have happened. I'm a good player, experienced and all, and I learn very very fast, but I got repulsed by the idea of rank discrimination. Ok, if someone is bad, don't take him, duh, but they have to prove they're bad first. Never tried GvG though, but HA always appealed to me in some way, but never even got r1, because people never gave me the chance to enjoy it. It's dead, guess what, it's your own god damn fault.

The Baphomet · Dec 30, 2010, 03:49 PM // 15:49

If you think anyone is good enough to play like a well ranked team, why do you and your SC friends form up a lame bbsway or invoke spike or IWAY?

I bet you would get farmed. I'm not trying to be mean, but the reason my guild loses in GvG is because they want to learn a game that is 5 years old. Try being new in Starcraft/Warcraft. The same thing will happen. Everyone you play will be experienced. You will lose.

diabiosx · Dec 30, 2010, 06:12 PM // 18:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Baphomet

If you think anyone is good enough to play like a well ranked team, why do you and your SC friends form up a lame bbsway or invoke spike or IWAY?

I bet you would get farmed. I'm not trying to be mean, but the reason my guild loses in GvG is because they want to learn a game that is 5 years old. Try being new in Starcraft/Warcraft. The same thing will happen. Everyone you play will be experienced. You will lose.

/agree.
Can the beginners explain to me why they dont believe in this simple idea of experience?

The Infamous · Dec 30, 2010, 07:38 PM // 19:38

Rank descrimination is there because those of you that complain about it suck. Ive had 2 rank 11 accounts in the past 3 years and both were champ 3 and 4 respectively. Now after i got my newest account ive gotten rank 6 in 4 nights. Stop complaining.

Bright Star Shine · Dec 31, 2010, 02:25 AM // 02:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Infamous

Rank descrimination is there because those of you that complain about it suck. Ive had 2 rank 11 accounts in the past 3 years and both were champ 3 and 4 respectively. Now after i got my newest account ive gotten rank 6 in 4 nights. Stop complaining.

I beg to differ, I was never given the chance to prove my worth, all I got was: no rank? conclusion, you must suck. That's pretty bad PRing in my opinion. At least what we do in our guild is give people the chance to prove that they are worth spending time on teaching how everything works, and it's worked splendidly and it will keep working that way, because when old players decide they've had enough, new players will always take their place and learn hopefully fast enough.. There are indeed players that are just plain bad at everything, but they usually leave themselves...

And you might have r11 on 2 account and r6 on the third, but you prolly got in some high-end guild with lots of mates who took you on runs, because they know you're good. Well, that's still discrimination. Whether you like to admit it or not...

The problem with (most) high-end PvP'ers is that they think everyone is bad by default, and never give others the chance to prove them different. Stop being such cocks on a stick and HA will probably blossom again, although it will be a mere reflection of what it once was, and it will never be as beautiful as the flower it once was..

And of course, there are also some cocks on a stick in PvE (I know some, and I don't like them for that particular reason) who don't give people the chance to learn either.

And I also know there have been made efforts by some very good-willing PvP guilds to get HA going again by advertising and trying to get a new influx, but the game is too filled with players who walked into the party after everyone was already drunk and went home to go to sleep, and they don't know what the hell is going on. There are of course some of us die-hards who stay till the last drop of alcohol is gone, but it's hard to sympathize with players who have been hardly playing for a year or so (I feel the same).

I'm actually considering going for a PvP title once again (many attempts of which all have failed) but it would mean leaving my friends behind, and not doing DoA anymore, so it will probably end with a no thank you...

diabiosx · Dec 31, 2010, 05:39 AM // 05:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bright Star Shine

I beg to differ, I was never given the chance to prove my worth, all I got was: no rank? conclusion, you must suck. That's pretty bad PRing in my opinion. At least what we do in our guild is give people the chance to prove that they are worth spending time on teaching how everything works, and it's worked splendidly and it will keep working that way, because when old players decide they've had enough, new players will always take their place and learn hopefully fast enough.. There are indeed players that are just plain bad at everything, but they usually leave themselves...

And you might have r11 on 2 account and r6 on the third, but you prolly got in some high-end guild with lots of mates who took you on runs, because they know you're good. Well, that's still discrimination. Whether you like to admit it or not...

The problem with (most) high-end PvP'ers is that they think everyone is bad by default, and never give others the chance to prove them different. Stop being such cocks on a stick and HA will probably blossom again, although it will be a mere reflection of what it once was, and it will never be as beautiful as the flower it once was..

And of course, there are also some cocks on a stick in PvE (I know some, and I don't like them for that particular reason) who don't give people the chance to learn either.

And I also know there have been made efforts by some very good-willing PvP guilds to get HA going again by advertising and trying to get a new influx, but the game is too filled with players who walked into the party after everyone was already drunk and went home to go to sleep, and they don't know what the hell is going on. There are of course some of us die-hards who stay till the last drop of alcohol is gone, but it's hard to sympathize with players who have been hardly playing for a year or so (I feel the same).

I'm actually considering going for a PvP title once again (many attempts of which all have failed) but it would mean leaving my friends behind, and not doing DoA anymore, so it will probably end with a no thank you...

Well the thing is there is too many things to teach, you cant expect a beginner to be good at HA overnight, it will take months just to be decent in most people's opinions. No one has months to teach a beginner the basics of HA. There are rank12+ players that you may consider as "good" but they still dont understand subtle things in HA because they only play the game and never question the mechanics. For example on the subtle things, most high rank HA monks run survivor insignia, HB infuse, +30hp spears, has the -5damage/20%shields, camp 4040 when getting attacked, dying on high set, doesnt have a -50hp -2degen death set. Failure to get life up against a degen team through bad placement of the spirit. And then theres splitting in HA which 95% of r12+ has no idea on the very most basics of monks following damage, frontlines calling for midline damage to offensively cap bases and that 2frontlines when splitting should not be on same base. Cant 3man block hoh relics, cant square block in unholy. Most rank9 players cant even explain to you why all of these are bad(hell even a supposedly "high ranked player" wrote a gaint article stating why it is better to camp 4040 which is clearly false). Of course these subtle things can be ignored because HA really has no competition and u can make these mistakes and still win against the r6+.(real life analogy of: If you are a cripple and you win the olympics 300m dash because there is no competition, does it mean you are good?)

if you examine a beginner who is new to pvp.
1, they dont read PvP articles so they dont know any of the nuances that people have discovered over the past 6years
2, they dont have the correct bar and they dont understand how the skill works
3 they have the wrong equipment and the wrong attributes(even with pvxwiki, yes I pugged unranks a few times, gave them the team pvxwiki link and this still happens)
4 they dont understand what 90% of the skills do. that means you have about 200 skill vocabulary to build up and fully understand the pros/cons of these 200skills being played in HA
5 they dont understand how to prevent damage through movement which is why they always wipe sooo fast.
6 no understanding of objectives and the different aproaches to win/ prevent the other team from winning.
7 the game is way too complicated for beginners to learn, might as well go play some other game that is easier to learn and get the reward of enjoyment instantly.

Bright Star Shine · Dec 31, 2010, 01:27 PM // 13:27

You immediately assume that I, or anyone else just isn't capable of learning that stuff.. I am very aware of skills, I learn very fast and I am already very experience in other aspects of the game, so learning these mechanics won't be that hard, ok it will require trial and error for both me and the people teaching me, but that's how you learned it, and how every other high-ranked PvPer learned it.

I'll reflect this on what I generally do nowadays. Well, the only thing I do nowadays actually. DoASC, I know PvE is a lot easier, and AI is easy to predict, but there are still a lot of mechanics linked to it, and there is a lot to learn from that as well.. When I first started doing it, it was generally, listen to what they tell me and try not to screw up. After like 10 runs I had mastered all the mesmer bars, and I could already run caller. Tanking and bonding followed shortly after. So now I can run everything, even did UA the other day, but screw that, not running that shit again...

Anyway, in DoA there are also many things that go wrong with new people:
1. Not knowing how the AI works and how monsters will react, causing scatter, breakage, bad placement of EoE, agroing things..
2. Bad spikes, because of the new guys being unsure when to go, or lagging behind.
3. Bad monks who don't heal/seed at the correct times
4. Emo's lagging behind and losing bonds, although in some situations you can perfectly cope without bonds, but when balling big stuff you get blown up pretty fast.
5. Bad or new tanks who still don't know all the pops, patrols, pulls etc (although I also make some mistakes there sometimes)
The list goes on with little mistakes that are made there, but the new ones learn them pretty fast usually. Some stay bad, or mediocre, but that's normal, they give up after a while and don't do runs anymore, so that doesn't really matter..

The big difference here is: AI =/= PvP, I know that, when you play against real players it's very hard to predict what will happen, or what's best to do, but I got vent, I talk on vent, but most importantly, I listen when people that know how this works better than me explain me what to do. That's one of the main things that also must happen in our guild: if you don't know what's happening, or you don't know what to do, ask what to do, or listen to what they tell you to do. That generally works out just fine..

I would also be weary to take players that haven't been around as long as me, and haven't known the game as it used to be, all those years ago, because if you were there from the start, you know how things have evolved and understand mechanics even better.

I'll say it again, you guys shouldn't be so xenophobic about taking new players. Take a recruit, trial him for a week or so, and if he indeed proves to be bad, you could still say: "We're sorry, we don't think that this is something for you, you might want to try something else." That happens in our guild as well, if someone doesn't apply to our standards, our leader kindly sais him that he isn't the right thing for our guild. But who knows, if you try, you might find someone who IS good at it, and who could be a friendly and nice guy with whom you become friend eventually. But you guys always isolated your sanctuary from the other players, and now there is noone interested anymore, yeah kind of logical, no?
If you have a giant cake, and found it first, and some other guys want to have a piece, only a little, and you tell them to f*ck off, because it's your cake, and they find one somewhere else, and a couple days later you want to have a party with your cake, but no-one shows up, because they have their own cake now, it's kind of your own fault. (Sorry for the metaphors, I'm growing kind fond of them

)

diabiosx · Dec 31, 2010, 02:19 PM // 14:19

Well if you make reference to PvE, UWsc is the only one I know, so its like this: There are guilds that can UWsc in 18minutes, and there are guilds that can UWsc in 1hour, there are just things that cant be taught.
And heres another thing the game is 6years ago, most of the high ranked players already made friends that they play with all the time. Theres 7 other players in the team, if you let 1 newbie in to teach them you are destroying 6other peoples goals. Its not as easy as you think. 1 guy payed 100e to play fire ele into our group once and every1 in the team was "i want to win thanks, kick him." Unless you can change the core definition of what competition is, which is to win, what you want will not happen to some extent. But thats not to say that high rank players dont help out. They join unranked/r3 groups alot of times when they are free but the beginners never really ask for advise they instead just ask, "hey can i join your guild, im really good" or "hey can i come in one of your groups im really good"(the reason is already discussed in previous posts)

Theres a hierarchy of teaching in HA, just like real life education.
r3-6s need to teach beginners basics.
r7-9s need to teach beginners basics but more refined
r10-11 need to teach counters and build theories.
r12-13 need to teach subtle tactics.
so who you really need to blame are r3-6s not wanting to teach you because they rather farm fame. And you dont wanna learn from me cause im a douche

Simath · Jan 01, 2011, 02:00 AM // 02:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bright Star Shine

It's dead, guess what, it's your own god damn fault.

That's not true. You've made it more than obvious that you are disgruntled and displeased with the pvp community, but accusing them for the awful state of HA is just ridiculous.

The problem is that most players want everything handed to them instead of working for anything. You need motivation and dedication to succeed in PvP in any game. Instead of pouting and holding a grudge against PvPers, you should have found a guild for beginners looking to get into HA and gone from there. As long as you were not terrible you would have developed connections and getting into groups would have been easier. Saying that you were unable to partake in HA because of rank discrimination is nothing more than a scapegoat.

Anet figured out long ago that players are lazy and most do not want to work for anything (see: UB, SF, cons, etc.). A lot of the people willing to put in effort were part of the PvP community, but most left the game a long time ago, which has led to the barren state of HA.

Missing HB · Jan 01, 2011, 09:27 AM // 09:27

That's not right. It used to be possible to test out things in order to get better in 2006-2007 , but now people are lazy because they know it's pointless. GW is one of the rare games where there are only teams vs teams for competitive PvP and they know that it's completly inactive , only some r10 teams are left. In AB , there are 3 groups of 4 and even if 1 is shit , other 2 can still contribute to win. In JQ , even if you have crap ppl , 2 roj monks can make the diference. Same reasons can be said for CS , starcraft , warcraft , etc....Now , since 2008 can you even test out builds and get better in Ha/GvG? clearly not. That's why probably making 7 henchs team is the best solution...

Just get this example :
- Setting sun guilds forms team at 5 am euro when noone and then they keep holding vs randomways + other teams , since it's 1v1 and they are blue. Every day they hold about 6 hours , what's the point for people to bother forming since they know they will lose hall and then disband ??

Master Fuhon · Jan 01, 2011, 06:00 PM // 18:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by diabiosx

Theres a hierarchy of teaching in HA, just like real life education.
r3-6s need to teach beginners basics.
r7-9s need to teach beginners basics but more refined
r10-11 need to teach counters and build theories.
r12-13 need to teach subtle tactics.
so who you really need to blame are r3-6s not wanting to teach you because they rather farm fame. And you dont wanna learn from me cause im a douche

'Teaching' by accounts of what the word really means, is almost absent from Guild Wars (majority of older players learned with experiences and had not been taught). If I were to try to define teaching in a meaningful way to help people do it, I would have to combine various standards that qualify people within the profession of teaching (too much work to do this). If something like wikipedia defines Education as 'act or experience that has formative effect on the mind, character, or physical ability of a person', teaching would likely be something like 'having formative acts/experiences organized in ways that they are more efficiently utilized by others based on knowledge of how they learn'.

When you recognize what happens within the game, Guild Wars requires people to decide what is important to learn and decide how they want to learn it. A real teacher has knowledge of how people learn (child studies, psychology) that the ordinary person likely doesn't have. A real teacher can teach the unwilling. Many players don't even seek to find the distinction between getting better and winning more. Game players have more power than they do in a school to just walk out of the classroom, or to schedule how long they want the lesson to be and what that lesson covers.

Teaching was discussed for a while in a thread about why the community sucks. It correlates with learning in that learning can likely be done using environments as a teacher (which is harder than having experts). I can't remember all the conclusions of that massive thread. My best guess on what conclusions could be:
1) People can succeed by repeating beginner lessons instead of advanced ones
2) Some players cannot discern skill levels well
3) Some people have outside obstructions to learning
4) Some people ignore/can't find available resources
5) There is a hard ceiling on how good many players will get
6) Getting better is not always entertaining
7) Sucky communities both require teachers and use them as scapegoats

It's more of a learning hierarchy. Learning problems can be related to how perceptions cause motivation and demotivation. In poorly functioning communities, parents and students can also use their numbers to gang up and say it's only the teachers causing them to fail to learn. Like the things people mentioned about HA in this thread, it doesn't always matter whether things are true. If there is a believable perception that playing Heroes Ascent is too difficult/pointless/institutionally biased, motivation to play it will only drop and beliefs about the place will be self-fulfilling. I would consider this to be an issue with 'advertising'.

Stop focusing on teaching and learning unless these are real strengths that people have. If there's something that individual players are more capable of doing, it will be advertising and seeing how the 'brand' of Heroes Ascent is coming across to the players. Based on how Heroes Ascent is being advertised, recognize that people will know that lies are being told when they enter the place and see none of what has been advertised to them. GvG is also struggling, and yet it is currently being advertised right now with Monthly Commentaries. I can't say this will work, because A-Net is advertising people away from PvP and communicating towards filling Hall of Monuments and achievement. Commentaries will require the right mix of providing information for learning and making the format at least seem accessible. Celebrity endorsements are frequently used, but in GW, the 'celebrities' endorsed GvG; and over time the game became so AI focused that there are almost no celebrities.

If you can't teach properly, if the players can't learn properly; what else can you try next but advertising better. What else makes people buy crap products and elect politicians? What will get people to enter Heroes Ascent? But remember, sometimes the reasons you 'buy into' HA are the reasons people don't buy. How is education sold in the real world? Through demonstration. Scientia Potentia Est is not just a guild name.